We had a great discussion on hell last night at Theology Pub.
Some of the questions that were raised.....
--Why does God have people who go to hell suffer for eternity?
--Why can't they just suffer for a little while and then be annihilated?
--Isn't that kind of sick to make someone suffer for eternity?
--How does that correlate with the characteristics of Jesus? Meaning his love, compassion,
grace, etc?
--What is hell actually like?
--What about those who have never heard? Can't Jesus' blood cover them even if they don't
know that Jesus is the one doing the saving? (I think so)
Some people use the argument that God has to send people to hell because it's justice, he doesn't have a choice. But that is saying that God can't make his own decisions. He's bound by some sort of system that is out of his control.
Keep in mind that we were asking these questions not just to dump the answers on people but because we really want to know. Don't assume that you know what my answers would be on these subjects because quite honestly I don't have a lot of them. I think the canned answers for the questions on hell are garbage. There has to be some real answers that don't try to bail God out all the time but really explain the necessity of hell. Again, don't answer with justice because God can do whatever He wants.
All of this has sparked from reading part of Mclaren's latest book "The Last Word and the Word After That." Here are some quotes you might enjoy:
"Deep in my heart, I acknowledged that I felt stuck with the traditional view of hell. It bothered me to use exclusive and Jesus in the same sentence. Everything about Jesus' life and message seemed to be about inclusion, not exclusion. I couldn't figure out how anything with "eternal conscious torment" in it could be called "Good News."
Quote from Mere Christianity:
"There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Chrsitianity and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it."
Chronicles of Narnia ends on a similar note with Aslan telling (can't remember his name.) that because of his ignorance he will still be saved. Aslan said that everything he did for his gods Aslan would count that he did it for him and everything he did wrong he would count that he did it towards his gods. Interesting.
I love C.S. Lewis and I think I agree with him and his more open view of salvation but I'm still shocked more people didn't see him as a heretic. There is a fine line between heretic and genius and Lewis was a Mere Genius.
Any thoughts on hell out there? I'm curious to learn more of the history of hell and how the idea has transformed over the years from what Jesus said clear up to this devil and pitchfork idea. I think that will help clear it up. Hopefully Mclaren will go through some of that as the book goes on.
One music note: Bloc Party is another terrible rip off hipster band.
28 comments:
i was reading "customer reviews" for McLaren's new book at amazon.com and he was getting ripped for having the view of hell that he portrays in the book.
yeah, i just checked those out on Amazon, pretty rough. I'm curious as to what the fuss is about. Still only a quarter of the way through and mostly just questions so far. looking forward to hearing some of his answers.
I don't think that anyone is ever unfortunate to the point that they don't know a higher being exists. Even if there's a random guy living on an island all alone, God will let something happen to him to knowledge him of a higher being. Even if the guy is never told about God or Jesus, he will at least be given the choice to believe in a higher being. And that will be enough for his salvation. (In my opinion, anyway).
Maybe this is taking this WAY out of context but in Luke (I say just luke because I don't remember even what chapter it is in) but when Jesus talks about being trusted with many things and your job to use what he has trusted you with.
If Jesus hasn't got to people or people have little knowledge I don't think he will punish them for that. *that is what I believe*
*something to chew on*
I do remember Dr. Lowery in my freshman year saying something about living in your forefathers sin. Most people through their forefathers have heard of Jesus and have chosen to ignore him. So some will be punished because their fathers rejected Jesus. I hope I did not take that out of context.
on another note have you heard that song with William Shapner or whatever his name is (Captin Kurk.) What do you think of it. I can imagine it is called "living like common people"
interesting topic Dustin...
I have been on both sides of the argument here. I used to just assume that hell was for eternity and the only way to avoid it was if you heard and accepted the gospel of Christ. If you didn't hear it, too bad. I never really questioned that view until I really thought about it (and studied a little about the anihilation theory).
Why would a life-time of sin warrant an eternity in hell. How's that just? Wouldn't justice be a life-time of hell for a life-time of sin?
I like your idea of Jesus' blood covering the ignorant. I also like the idea of Jesus' blood covering the informed...it's actually the same blood isn't it? And in the case of the "man on the island" scenario, believing in a higher power (in my opinion) is irrelevant. Just because you haven't got the gospel, it doesn't mean that believeing is "enough"...that's never been enough. It's still about the blood of Christ. I think focusing on how much you have to believe and accept is missing the point.
one more thing...I think that conservative evangelicals are far too fond of the idea of non-followers of Christ burning for eternity. It's like they love to see people get what's coming to them and more. Note their overly supportive attitudes for the death penalty and concealed weapons (so they can shoot the bad guy).
We should keep in mind that it is not Christ who sends us to hell, but ourselves who determine where we spend eternity. It clearly states in the Bible that those who choose not to accept the Word as truth will be in hell.
Accept
Believe
Commit
It's easy. Tres facile!
Nice thread. I would like to comment on Tylers post. I think that hell can be eternal because the unrepentant sinner remains unrepentant in hell. Its kinda thick to think about, but its the only way it makes sense to me. Just like the idea that even in heaven the redeemed will have a choice about God. The fact that Lucifer rejected God in heaven is something that I would reference as a possible clue to our "after" state.
The "overly conservative evangelicals" do not support concealed weapons and the death penalty b/c they like to see "bad people get that they deserve." They support it because in the Bible when someone did wrong, there were consequences (which usually ended up in death). I guess when you speak of overly conservative enangelicals, you're speaking of me and a stereotype that I just wish everyone would drop b/c it's sooo old. Not everyone whom you've given this title to is supportive of the death penalty and the concealment of weapons. I can give you LONG lists! People seem to get so offended b/c we have morals when all we're trying to do is practice what we believe in and believe to be right. Believe it or not, but I've never been to church function of mine where we sit around and talk about "overly liberal leaders", etc. I wish people would ask us what we believe in and why we support it rather than ASS-U-ME. I don't judge you so please do not judge me. Take the plank out of your own eye before attempting to remove the speck of dust out of mine.
I was reminded in Phillipians that at some point everyone, including satan, will bow before Jesus and confess him as Lord. does that mean that although everyone will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, those who still choose to not follow him will go to hell? even though they know the truth, they choose to follow their own desires, is that hell? we will not all live in ignorance forever. there will come a time when the truth will be known to everyone. And because of that justice will be served, not justice in a box that limits God and definitely not justice as defined by our human standards, but God ordained justice. God created justice, God allows consequences. Our mortal view of justic can be distorted, but God's is not. He can and I believe will still use it.
kelli
I would like to comment on your post Adam. I'm not saying it's not true but it blows my mind to think that people in hell would still be unrepentant but I guess we really don't know the nature of hell. Maybe that is how it works.
"Just like the idea that even in heaven the redeemed will have a choice about God. The fact that Lucifer rejected God in heaven is something that I would reference as a possible clue to our "after" state."
That is interesting right there. I guess i've never really thought about anyone rejecting God once they get to heaven. Do you think it is possible for people in hell who have acknowledged Jesus (like Kelli said in her post) will still have the opportunity to be redeemed and go to heaven?
Mclaren made an interesting point about the character of Jesus in his book that if the love and grace that we see in the New Testament really is his nature than Jesus would be the first one storming the gates of hell to go in and take as many out as he can. But at the same time Jesus let numerous people go in the NT. Like the Rich Young Ruler, he didn't go following him around begging him to follow, he told him what it cost and he let him go to his own demise.
well, it's getting hot in here isn't it? Maybe i was coming on a little strong. Please understand that I would actually include myself in the conservative evangelical circle. It's how I grew up, it describes the church I am in now. But I cannot ignore how 'conservative evangelical' and 'republican' mean almost the same thing these days. Again, I would still claim both for myself. There is no need to talk about planks and specks of dust here...other than the fact that I am simply pointing out my own plank.
Recently I have been compelled by the love and compassion that I find pouring out of the NT. I recently taught Jesus' teaching that when someone wrongs you, you should not retaliate, and more importantly, you should return love and prayer. How do you reconcile that with a government who still basically operates on they "eye for eye" priniciple. Jesus said that he didn't come to abolish that law, but rather to complete it...he came to tell us that it isn't about what's fair, it's about mercy and compassion.
I am sorry if I came across judgemental, I was only making an observation. Beleive it or not, I have seen so much "overly conservative" political propoganda pass through my church that one would think that liberal and sin were synonomous words.
Kellie - good point. Do you think that Paul meant that when everyone bows (in the end) that it will mean some will have a last chance to accept Christ, or do you think he meant that in the end all will be revealed and there will be no confusion about who is Lord...like a final "ah-ha" moment where the dispute is over and everyone will aknowlege God/Jesus because it will become everyone's ultimate reality.
Dustin/Adam - I guess I never considered "after-life" decisions. I suppose anything is possible. I wonder if both being in the immediate presence of God, and having a glorified body as well as the absence of evil and temptation will make following Christ less of a decision and more like a way of life. I suppose a lot of this is speculation.
Tyler, I'm not for sure what Paul meant. In my opinion, in that moment when truth is realized some may genuinely repent and Jesus will accept them, others will acknowledge the truth (as Satan and his demons do, they know the power of Jesus) and still choose to not follow him. If we have free choice in heaven, what makes God and us think that we wouldn't fall away again? and live this whole experience over again. Maybe because faith will not be based on the unseen but on the seen. heaven and hell will be very real and truth will be known. we would be morons to reject Jesus at that point, knowing what the alternative is.
kelli
Speaking of the whole conservative/liberal thing, Dallas Willard had an interesting quote that I found on my friend Bill's blog.
"Protestant denominations in the US can be divided into two groups - those who believe in Jesus but don't believe in what he said; and those who believe in what he said, but don't believe in him. The latter are sometimes called "liberals" and the former "conservatives." Willard bemoans this state of affairs and calls for a movement that brings together belief in the redemptive work of Jesus AND work that emulate's Christ's compassion for all who suffer in this world."
Interesting stuff.
Dustin,
I'm not "sure" about anything that I posted earlier. I suppose that in my mind there are certain things that don't fully add up. Such as true love without choice. I guess that I don't believe that the nature of love will change in heaven. That is to say that in order for us to love God we must have the option not to love him. Otherwise it really is just duty and obligation. God would be reduced to the status of cosmic puppet maker. The flip side of this is that perhaps the choice we make here is an eternal one. Maybe a better way to say it would be to say that in heaven there exists the liberty to turn from God.
Hell is a place in which grace cannot reach. There are no second chances and actually, we are separated from God forever. He cannot hear us and we no longer hear from him. So how can you say it's possible that people in hell can repent in hell and go to heaven? They had their chance and blew it. Hell is not purgatory. Remember in the Bible about the story about Lazarus being raised from the dead? He wanted the Lord to send him water to cool his tongue because he was tormented in the flame in hell, but the Lord DID NOT HEAR HIM. Once you're in hell, you're there for an eternity. When you're in heaven, you're there for an eternity. There are no alternatives. I can't understand why people try to interpret the Bible into things it's not. Some things are just not meant to be debated. It's how it is because that's how the Lord wants it. Why take it any other way??
"Why take it any other way?" Actually anonymous, hell is not very clear in the Bible. There are a lot of uncertainties. When you say, "I can't understand why people try to interpret the Bible into things it's not" i think you mean to say, "I can't understand why people try to interpret the doctrine my conservative evangelical church taught me into things it's not.
There is always a person to come and say, "you shouldn't question these things, just believe." I hope that is not something you say to someone who is a seeker and has honest questions about hell.
Unfortunately your message of "not questioning" is a large problem in the church.
it's the questions that help us to understand who God is and what his character is like. it's our questions that bring us closer to God. Questions and discussion are a natural part of faith but you probably wouldn't agree. You probably think we should just agree with whatever the church teaches us. I guess that is where we differ. I would like to figure it out with my Bible and my mind.
you certainly sound pretty sure about something the Bible doesn't specifically address. (such as God not being able to hear you,etc.) One more note, it wasn't Lazarus who was asking for a drop of water for his tongue, you might want to check that out again too.
Dustin,
Sorry I missed Thelology pub and showed up late to this after party. Great thread, thanks.
Three things...in your origianl post you said something like "that's like saying God couldn't do it ...but he's all powerful". In The Problem with Pain C.S. Lewis says something interesting. He says that people get it wrong when they say God can do everything. He can only do everything that is logically consistent with the system he set up. Most importanlty, he can't simultaneously give us meaningful free will AND block us (and others) from the consequences of our actions.
Second, if people who don't know him get a free pass, then isn't evangelism a process by which we roll dice with other people's souls. If a "people group" never heard of Jesus, then they are granted salvation with certainty if we leave them alone, but if we "missionize" them there's a chance some of them will say "thanks, but no thanks" and go to hell. Not sure I know what this all means, can anyone explain it to me?
Third, a view is emerging in this thread that people can still decide AGAINST God while in heaven, but get no second chances in Hell. Why the assymetry? It says in the bible that all who believe will be saved (I know there's also stuff about confessing with lips and stuff, but bear with me). Its also common teaching that you can't lose your salvation (though there's that exception for backsliders in Hebrews) so, does that mean if you rebel in Heaven you're still saved? Satan didn't stop believing in God, he just stopped obeying him. But he was cast out... I think. I've looked through the bible with this stuff in minda and there is precious little about Satan. I think most of it is some acid trip like passage is Isaiah. Maybe the dude who says its all clear can do a search in bible gateway and send post all the links?
actually, you got the wrong anonymous... i'm no conservative evangelical. and also, even if i were, why do you have to judge oh liberal pastor? praying for you.
No Comment.
Perhaps if "anonymous" would at least us a made up name (so as to obscure his or her true identity, because we care so much and would probably hunt them down and force liberal theology on them and make them drink a beer)than maybe there could be some continuity and flow to the thread.
Hey anomymous
try reading the bible, try living a little, and then if you have something to say to dustin give me a call first. My email is nickplassman@hotmail.com If you email me I will give you my phone number.
you concieted conservative...
Hahahaha. this is getting hilarious. now it's getting personal. are you guys going to fight it out in person? hahahaha.
"where's the soul? i want to know. New York City's evil- the surface is everything. but i could never do that. someone would see through that." -3EB
to nick,
first off all, i like your blog. i mentioned my own best friend's suicide. also, i'm no longer a conservative ("conceited" - spelled like that, btw). not so sure if i accept Christianity anymore either. i was raised with a southern baptist background, but now i feel like i was forced into believing what i did. i was never given a reson as to why our religion was "the right one (not that it was)." i feel like i didn't have a choice. it was more like, "go to church and believe this b/c our family does." i guess i'm searching. i mean, you can meet a hypocrite anywhere, but "if you want to meet one rather quickly, just walk into a church" (quote from a friend). that quote upset me when my friend said it, but it only hurt because it was true. Christians are so luke-warm these days. they say they're there for ppl but then are nowhere to be found. my lost friends treat me better than my supposed brothers and sisters in Christ. Christians are like doctors who tell you to stop smoking or drinking, but then on their break walk outside and light one up or head to the bar after work to study over the Bible. i mean, what Christian studies the Bible over beer (unless you're Catholic I guess. notice how alcoholic and Catholic both end in "holic":) j/k). tha twould ruin your witness right there! Christians are like that in that they don't talk the talk or walk the walk. the majority of ppl i know who say they're Christians can't even stand up and say what they believe in and why. everything as gotten so wishy-washy. then you have the Christians who don't like what the Bible says, so they make it or interpret it into what they want it to be, so they're temporarily pleased. there are so many gaping holes. to me, the Bible is the Bible - plain and simple. it just irritates me that ppl cannot accpet the consequences of things and they go on and add to or take out parts of the Bible when it clearly says in Revelation that no one should add to or take away from it (last chapter). ahhh... can't we all just...get along...already? anyway, i'm done and over this, so... go on and fan the flame if you must, but i'm done. hope you find what you're looking for.
1. that's dumb to think that a Christian can't drink a beer. I love a good dark beer. there is nothing inherently wrong with a beer. That's like saying that because we can be tempted to speed we shouldn't drive. It's not that we should stop driving altogether, we should learn to drive right. the same exact thing with beer. you can drink beer without being an alcoholic. You learn to use alcohol right. Otherwise, where do you stop? Do you cut out your eyes because you are lusting after a woman? No, you learn to train your eyes. In the city I live, people respect you that you can be a Christian without being a crazy fundamentalist that thinks all beer is evil. So many people have said, "that's cool that your pastor will hang out at the bar with you and have a beer. I want to check that church out." And they have! The whole idea that beer was somehow wrong just came up in the last 150 years when Mr. Welch made his grape juice to replace the wine in communion because he didn't believe in alcohol. Christians were the ones who started brewing beer! JOhn Calvin's wife was a master brewer. It's a shame what has happened in the fundamentalist mind in the last 100 years. It has certainly been a huge downfall in Christianity and the respect it has in our culture. Jesus would be hanging out with people in the bar, not running away from it. The Pharisees used to bust on Jesus for hanging out with sinners too. I'm glad that I'm on this side of the argument.
2. As Christians we don't have all the answers and in this day and age we aren't wishy washy, we've finally started to be honest enough to admit that we don't know everything.
Wow...I never knew that so many people cared so much about hell, beer, heaven & forgot about loving others. I want to cuss right now but someone would just start another 45 page blog on how Christians can't cuss, either. Remember, o ye fellow Christian evangelicals (we all are or we wouldn't be blogging about this crap...we'd be out serving the homeless or working in a Women's Shelter or plotting out how we could invite our new neighbors over for a bbq some time soon), that Christ said He came to seek and save the lost...to be a doctor to the sick, to serve and not to be served. Some people these days feel like they are better Christians because they can drink beer & talk about God at the same time; others think they are somehow holy for not sloshing down a cold one...ever. And those people probably think there will be an extra jewel in their crown in Heaven if they stay away from the 'bubbly.' Well, well, my friends...we're all wrong. Christ didn't come to condemn, He came to love us. He didn't come to build a case against us & make us suffer the consequences, He came to build a bridge so we could meet Him face to face. He came to love us so that, in turn, we could love others...not blog others...love others. Maybe one day we'll get it right. Maybe one day all of us will stop whining and start living. Maybe one day I'll quit typing and...
I had to laugh out loud at the "were all evangelicals...if you weren't, you wouldn't be posting) becuase there's a ring of truth to it. Dustin, thanks for getting the ball rolling! I'm going to quote you on a message board with way more intolerant people than you've got on your blog already. Should I include your URL? I woudln't do that to my worst enemy without his consent. There's something about religious in-bickering that just ruins a blog. It's like Dogs gone wild, just trying to pee on each other's pee. It just stinks.
Post a Comment