I have always hated when pastors copy a sermon word for word and preach it as their own on Sunday without ever giving credit to where or who it comes from. It's been a pet peave of mine since the Bible College days. Now, of course I take some ideas from here and there from sermons I have heard but I ALWAYS give credit to where credit is due, i never pretend to be smart enough to have come up with what I copy. But what about pastors who take a Rick Warren, or Ed Young sermon and preach it as if it were their own. Is that wrong? Is that unethical?
Christianity Today's blog got me thinking about this more in depth, many of you have already read it, but if not check it out here:
Out of Ur's article "Word for Word; what is driving pastors to plagiarize?"
What I think is even worse is that the celebrity preachers are encouraging people to not just take their sermons and preach them word for word but to actually buy them from the pastors for a price of about 6-10 dollars! I would say that there are about 674 things inherently wrong about that, but I don't think I need to list them off for this crew. This easter Keith and I got an email from Ed Young Jr. ministry allowing us to buy his Easter sermon for 8.95 with his own handwritten corrections. How considerate and generous of him to make a profit off of something he is already paid to do at his church! I could spend a lot of time and get very upset over this issue.
What I wanted to point out today however is that while reading a book for class called "Ministerial Ethics" I noticed that denominations across the board starting when ethical codes were first being written in the early 20th century cited plagiarism in preaching as unethical and against the standards of what it meant to be a pastor.
"It is unethical for the minister to use sermon material prepared by another without acknowledging the source from which it comes."
This was the standard on Presbyterian's, Disciples of Christ, Baptists, Unitarians, etc. across the board.
But in the more recent codes this line has been dropped altogether. There is no mention of plagiarism in the major denominational ethical codes! Why do you think this is? Has it recently become ethical to steal or even buy a sermon and preach it word for word as your own? Has this new act hurt or helped the church? Why would it be unethical 50 years ago but okay today?
18 comments:
Hey Katie,
A few things. One, remember i'm ONLY talking about sermons here and sermon manuscripts, not video stuff that takes a lot of time and money to do.
So with that in mind, here is my question. If the goal is to provide resources (in this case a sermon manuscript) to a church that needs it, why not send it to them free??? The pastor already got paid to write it (or team of pastors). The fact that someone would charge people for a sermon manuscript is the part that is unethical. If they really wanted to help others for no other reason than to help they would email the sermon manuscript for free. There's no cost in that. It's just another way churches think they can make money. As far as the videos, obviously that stuff costs money to make and I can understand that, but I can't think of a single reason to EVER sell a sermon manuscript. To me that is completely unethical in every sense of the word. Obviously I'm stating my point pretty strong here but I strongly believe it to be true.
My second point would be the fact that people in suburban Chicago, vary differently from Urban NYC, or rural Idaho. The fact that these preachers are taking a message manuscript that was written with a specific audience in mind (CCC) and trying to preach it word for word for their community, even though the community has their own needs, is certainly not helpful, and more so, the pastor is hindering growth in the community by not addressing the needs of the specific community that he pastors in essence being irresponsible to the community that has entrusted him to speak God's truth to them on Sunday morning. Instead of speaking God's truth to them, he is speaking God's truth to CCC or Fellowship, or whatever. But that is if you believe that every community is different with their own needs, and every city has differing people as well which I do. When I had a lunch thing with Ed Young Jr. a few years ago he said one of the most ignorant things I have heard come out of a leaders mouth. He said, "I don't care if you live in rural Texas or urban NYC, people are people, they are the same no matter where you live, there is no difference." After living in NYC, I can tell you for sure that there is a hell of a lot of difference between the people in NYC and the people in Tampa, FL. And that difference corresponds in a very strong way to the people you are preaching to. That is my second problem with buying sermons from other faith communities. If a pastor is not competent and guided by the Holy Spirit enough to deliver the message God has for him on a Sunday morning to his community, he should not be a pastor. Let me know if these two things make sense. Just wanted to let you know where I was coming from in all of this!
We are LOVING Portland, we couldn't be happier! Let us know for sure if you make it out here!
You're question however:
My question is, if you have full permission to use a message/talk/sermon, is it still considered plagiarism??" is a very good one! One I have not thought about. Anyone else has an opinion on this???
let me clarify one thing: I'm talking of pastors who buy and preach word for word. I'm not saying to not use the resources God has given. Obviously when studying i'm going to take advantage of history or people smarter than I am. I just thought I should bring that up in case I be misunderstood. What I'm talking about here is very specifically pastors who are buying sermons and then preaching them word for word as if it were their own.
Just because you buy the book doesn't mean you don't have to cite your sources. To me if it is not your original work you should give credit where credit is due.
hey can you tell kelli that i have tried to comment on her blog the past few days but it doesn't work. don't know why. i tried to do it under the google account since i don't use blogger anymore.
:-) thanks...
I'm completely with you on this, Dustin, with sermons and illustrations. My favorite has to be the story about the man throwing star fish back into the ocean because "it matters to this one!". Anyway, to try and avoid this I tend to use a lot of my own experiences as illustrations, which leads me to another question. Do you (or anyone else who reads this) think this is bad because it may seem self-absorbed and egotistical? In trying to be personal, genuine, open and to avoid the problem you mentioned, do you think it can come across as self-centered? I always enjoy personal stories (yours definitely included because they're usually hilarious and very relevant) over some generic story that someone else experienced or made up. Hope I'm not in the minority on this one.
John V.
what the matter betsy? you don't want to hear about the backstory to it is well with my soul again? you don't believe that little boy on the beach made a difference in the life of that starfish? you haven't heard that it's friday, but sunday's a comin'?
for my part, i think i could handle regurgitated sermons better if the sermons we were regurgitating weren't meaningless, self-help christianity tripe. wouldn't you rather hear a sermon by edwards, wesley or calvin than some five ways to make friends bullshit from some other midwestern suburb?
Hey Katie,
That's cool, we'll be around so you should that weekend from what I know. Right Kelli??? Make sure you get in touch with us. Do you have Kelli's phone number??? I would put it on here but we've had some psychos around our blog world lately that we would prefer not to give any personal info!
I'm not a fan as you know of selling sermons, but it is good that the money goes to a good cause. Can't argue with that! But you have to admit that as the sermons do not have to be sold, but the decision was to sell them for money that it is advantageous financially as well which figured into the decision to sell them rather than give them away in the first place. That being the case, that certainly hurts the case that, "we just want to help other churches."
Excuse my debate here, i'm usually not this thought-provoking or questioning (at least in public), i don't know what has gotten into me lately. Just ask Nick Plassman, he'll tell you! I've been questioning him about everyday over something.
John and Betsy, hahaha, hard to beat the old starfish illustration! I'm remember the third time I heard a preacher tell it as if it were his own at LCC chapel. I think that was the moment i became cynical about the church.
That's a great point John. Excellent question. I can only think of two things: 1. it depends on the delivery. was it sincere? what were the motives for using that personal example? 2. it depends on the person. I think for some people you are going to think they are self-centered no matter what they say. I think people can spot someone who is just there to talk about themselves or who are truly being helpful. With that said I have to admit that I have been guilty (as you know) of telling a story once in a while, not to make an extremely urgent point or timely illustration but to make people laugh.
Neeners, really opening a whole new can of worms here huh? That's a tough one! I would say that it depends if writing worship songs is the sole income for the songwriter or if the person is already paid by a church to write and sing songs to aid people in worship. It's a tough dilemma.
Another example would be in book-writing. Obviously the Stanley's (Andy and Charles) have taken about every sermon series they have preached and cut and pasted it into a book that sells thousands of copies. Is that ethical? Maybe like Katie said, it depends on where the money goes?
While I don't know the ultimate answer to the worship thing because i'm not a worship leader (Dave J or Bill W, any opinion here???), i have to say that I do find the whole celebrity worship leader thing (such as a worship megastar touring and charging 25 dollars a seat to come and "worship") strange. Anyone else? Makes me wonder who we are worshipping.
Man, this is a great discussion. I'm being stretched, thanks!
Katie and others,
Let me know what you think of this article. This actually puts into words better what i'm trying to get across (and more graciously). I'd like to see what you think.
http://bobhyatt.typepad.com/bobblog/2006/09/the_creative_co.html
copy and paste
dustin...i don't know what got into me, either!! i don't usually either comment on blogs that have even somewhat "controversial" topics. i guess i was feeling somewhat introspective...which, for me, is pretty out of character!!! i'll get kelli's cell phone # and call you when i come out there. maybe you guys can come and hook up with my friend kim and her husband jeremy. they are great folks!! (this is kt )
Katie,
That sounds great! we'll see you soon.
dustin, as for the worship leader getting paid for writing songs...well, i'm actually in debt because of the songs i've written. so i may not be the right person to ask.
Not sure if you've ever led a church or not but if you haven't it seems out of place for you to comment so strongly on pastors preaching other people's messages. If you do preach 52 times a year or somewhere close to that I think I would likely listen to you a little more intently, but seeing that you aren't acclimated to the pressure of a senior pastor then I think you might want to back off of your extremely strong comments & simply ask the question. I believe that plagiarism is wrong. I have done it. I can't speak with the same amount of passion when I'm using someone else's material. I also know that, as a former pastor of 7 years, that a senior pastor has about 334 other responsibilities than just speaking on the weekend. i think that if he/she needs to use someone else's stuff then mentioning this person's name at the beginning, middle or end is a good idea, but i do not think that every pastor needs to spend 29 hours (not that you were suggesting this) a week in prep time to be sure that it's all 'his/her' material. know what I mean? If Rick Warren said it good the first time then do I really need to re-invent the wheel? Two weeks ago I was at a church visiting and every song they sang was from the Passion CD but I didn't complain that it was the worship leader's material...I praised God and sang to him.
Can't believe I'm posting this...it's not mine but I'm not telling you where it came from but that I think it is valuable:
I heard a very good sermon one recent Sunday. It was not by accident. The minister did not throw preparation to the wind and "trust the Spirit." We’ve all heard plenty of those messages. The truth is, a spirit has often been trusted, but it is the spirit of indolence.
The best sermons are multilayered. The preacher goes deep inside to ask a question that is spreading its roots in the darkest recesses of his heart. He struggles with the Scripture passage, embracing its complexities, subtleties, and mystery. Then it’s back to his heart to search for the word that he must speak. A word that he would speak even if he was an audience of one.
The best preachers I know are grateful for their homiletics professors, but they understand good mechanics and exegesis are only the foundation. The rest must come from agonizing and exhilarating interaction with the Scriptures and life as it is lived, in all of its sweet and sad particulars.
The sermon I heard was not written by a committee. The minister did not look outside himself for approval. He wrote the message during a summer break at his house by the lake. The sermon was his. It brought to mind Rainer Maria Rilke’s words in Letters to a Young Poet, thoughts at once instructive and haunting: "Keep growing quietly and seriously throughout your whole development; you cannot disturb it more rudely than by looking outward and expecting from outside replies to questions that only your inmost feeling in your most hushed hour can perhaps answer."
It is the word perhaps I find haunting. Risk is inherent in preaching. The best sermons are not tied with bows and sprinkled with fairy dust. It is implied, "This is what I know for now, with the best study I can do, and the wisdom God has granted me." Sometimes, blessed by God, those words are enough for the precious time the audience has allotted to hear them. And sometimes—and we all have been there—we hear the words crash to the platform floor no sooner than they come out of our mouths.
There was no crashing of words in the sermon I heard. Just hard work and wisdom and the Spirit working together in common cause. And it was good.
Hey Anonymous Pastor dude,
Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and your feelings for this issue. This is why I have a blog in the first place, to discuss and hear other’s people opinions so I can learn. I was an associate pastor at a church for about 4 years before going back to Seminary so I’m guilty of only preaching about 12 – 15 times a year up to this point so I 100% agree that I do not understand the pressure or what it must be like to preach 52 weeks a year. That is quite a challenge to undertake. I think part of the reason I commented so strongly was because of frustration, I probably am guilty of letting my emotions get the best of me (as you will see once in a while). When I get upset about something, I tend to vent.
I understand that the senior pastor has A LOT on his plate. So my only question would be, is there a way to “do” church that would eliminate some of those things and free the pastor up to be a committed communicator with his congregation? I really put that out there as a question because I think a lot of times the pastor gets caught up in being the administrative CEO instead of the pastor and confuses roles. Obviously there are a lot of people with a lot of needs however. I just wonder if there is a simpler way to do church that would allow it. I’m certainly not advocating that you spend 29 hours a week on a message. Actually, I don’t think I’ve ever spent over 15, many times write a good sermon in about 10-12. I’m certainly not suggesting that we never borrow anything from anybody or make sure every ounce is original. What I’m suggesting is two things:
1. That we give credit such as, “Rick Warren said..:
2. That we do not preach word for word some other dudes manuscript and pretend like it is our own.
Let me know what you think, this is a good discussion. Thanks for being a part of it.
to the second anonymous person, I know who you are. it's Pete Gall isn't it???
Dustin--I had no idea that I could get a copy of Pastor Ed's manuscript with hand-written corrections. Thanks for letting me know, I am all over purchasing that. Okay, not really.
This is a great discussion. I find the worshipping of worship leaders more troubling than the worshipping of pastors. I am not sue why.
thanks for your input Aaron, i was actually wondering what you thought about it given your situation.
anonymous #2 was NOT Pete Gall
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