He made this statement quoting a "friend": "The traditional understanding (of the atonement) says that God asks of us something that God is incapable of Himself. God asks us to forgive people. But God is incapable of forgiving. God can’t forgive unless He punishes somebody in place of the person He was going to forgive. God doesn’t say things to you—Forgive your wife, and then go kick the dog to vent your anger. God asks you to actually forgive. And there’s a certain sense that, a common understanding of the atonement presents a God who is incapable of forgiving. Unless He kicks somebody else."
"Unless God kicks somebody else?" God didn't kick somebody else, God took the sin of the world on his shoulders willingly, He wasn't taking it out on "someone else". The only way you can make a statement like that is if you do not believe in the divinity of Jesus nor the trinity. I have disagreed with Brian on things in the past, as I'm sure most of you have, but this isn't something I can ignore or just sweep under the rug. I'm not sure why I should keep reading a guy who not only endorses Marcus Borg and Crossan but rejects the divinity of Jesus in the same interview. Wow.
7 comments:
I think that is exactly what he's saying though. In the context of the quote he is not aiming at atonement, but at a traditional view of hell, the one that "God's gonna getcha." I could be wrong, but listen again, it might not be exactly as you think.
It seems to me that they didn't finish the thought, but that's a whole other conversation.
McClaren doesn't hold a traditional view of hell, that's very clear in his third book of the trilogy. Let me know if you disagree.
D. Jarrett
I think you misunderstood him greatly . He is saying that many people believe this about the atonement. I believe this is true. He is not disparaging the divinity of Jesus at all.
I agree with D. Jarrett. You need to listen a little more carefully.
Yeah, it's kind of hard to understand because I know the interview is about hell, but then Leif starts talking about the atonement and it sounds as if Leif is disparaging the atonement and then Brian picks up with this thought. So, I don't know if Brian is saying (much like Chalke), "the substitutionary atonement is divine child abuse" or if he is saying, "the way people typically think of the substitutionary atonement makes it sound like divine child abuse"
I'm not sure which it is.
by the way, thanks for engaging this though. I obviously have no desire to misrepresent anyone, much more so a guy I have truly appreciated in the past so I hope I am wrong!
Can I open up a can of worms?
What do you think of McClaren's view of hell? I read the trilogy and knew he was somewhere near this camp. Is holding people accountable for their actions, giving them the "wages" for their sin anti-the character of God? I've never really thought about it like that. I'm interested to see what you think.
Dustin,
I tried to send you an email awhile back, but I'm not sure if it got to you or was the right address or anything...just wondering if you got that and if not, can you give me your correct email address and I'll re-send you what I originally asked?
thanks!
also, just got back from nyc and went to Lombardi's again for pizza. I remembered how great it was from the first time you recommended it...soooo good.
It's been a long time since I've read the third book in the trilogy (plus someone borrowed it and never gave it back) so I honestly don't even remember Mclaren's view of hell. Can you refresh me?
"Is holding people accountable for their actions, giving them the "wages" for their sin anti-the character of God?"
I don't think so, I think if no one was held accountable for their actions there would be no such thing as justice in the world. And this is a tricky thing because when I look at all the evil in the world, I long for justice and for God to set things right. But at the same time, for myself I desire mercy because I know I have done some crappy stuff as well. I guess what this leads to is the question, "does justice equal punishment?"
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